June 04, 2020, 11:31:05 AM

Author Topic: Engine swaps  (Read 2316 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Engine swaps
« on: March 13, 2017, 01:04:54 AM »
Hi Guys,

Just wanted to get the correct info on the mto requirements if someone is doing an engine swap.  From what I have read and understood.....any new/replacement engine that is placed into a car has to have all the emission equipment as the original engine. Have I missed anything?

lb9 GTA

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 12
  • My Ride: 1988 Trans Am GTA
  • Location: Scarborough
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 03:01:49 PM »
That engine also has to be the same age as the vehicle or newer.

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 11:21:41 PM »
There was no mention that the engine has to be same year of car or newer.....

Here is the link where I got my info:

https://www.ontario.ca/faq/do-hot-rods-need-drive-clean-test

Again, If you read the post 1999 replacement it talks about a drive clean test, compared to pre 1999 where it states ( if applicable ). 

A little confusing.

Wheelman

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
  • My Ride: 1981 Trans Am
  • Location: Etobicoke
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 12:48:40 AM »
Because you are replacing the motor now, you have to replace all the 1980 emissions equipment, no matter what motor you put in.

In my case, because I replaced my 301 with a 400, which was not offered by Pontiac in 1981, and I completed the swap before 1999, so I qualify for for hot rod status.
But, if they insist for some reason, that I must be tested, I have to meet the standards set for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:38:43 PM by Wheelman »

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 12:56:09 AM »
Not sure what is meant by " you have to replace all the 1980 emissions equipment, "

If I was to pull the original 301 and install an older used 400.....don't I have to put back all the emission components that came with the 301 onto the 400? Is this swap considered a compliance with the act?

Wheelman

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
  • My Ride: 1981 Trans Am
  • Location: Etobicoke
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 10:35:45 AM »
That is correct. I guess "restore" would have been a better choice of words than "replace".

So you need the AIR pump, EGR, Cats.

My '73 motor, which was only tested once, passed with only cats installed, and technically, they are not required.

No "Visible" emissions is the most important.

Wheelman

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
  • My Ride: 1981 Trans Am
  • Location: Etobicoke
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 05:06:43 PM »
I wrote the Ministry's supervisor for Emissions Compliance...basically the boss of all the road side testing guys about my car, and this was his response ( I carry this in the car)

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2017, 10:24:04 PM »
That is great information! The other question that comes to mind are items or components that would need to be changed from doing an engine swap ie Pontiac 301 to Pontiac 400 or Pontiac 455. I have heard people say that the 400/455 both bolt right up. Does this mean the 301 mounts can be used for the 400/455 replacement engine? Is there anything else that can't be used off the 301 for the above swap?

lb9 GTA

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 12
  • My Ride: 1988 Trans Am GTA
  • Location: Scarborough
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 02:57:49 PM »
There was no mention that the engine has to be same year of car or newer.....

Here is the link where I got my info:

https://www.ontario.ca/faq/do-hot-rods-need-drive-clean-test

Again, If you read the post 1999 replacement it talks about a drive clean test, compared to pre 1999 where it states ( if applicable ). 

A little confusing.
From the environmental protection act
Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods
4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor.  O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor.  O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.



In other words you can't (shouldn't) replace a 301 with, say, a Ram Air 3 because the 301 was designed to meet tighter emissions standards (not that anyone would really know) even if you put the 301 emission control devices on.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 02:59:22 PM by lb9 GTA »

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 08:44:26 PM »
Thanks for the info......my question was more geared towards the actual swap from a 301 to either a 400 or 455. Both engines were produced in the mid 70's.  I  was looking to find out what engine components/equipment will require a change because some items from the 301 are not compatible with the 400 or 455's. I was hoping wheelman could answer this question cause he has gone through this experience.

Wheelman

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
  • My Ride: 1981 Trans Am
  • Location: Etobicoke
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 04:37:41 PM »
I am actually going through it again this month as I replace my '73 400 with an E-Headed '76 462.

Engine mounts will be compatible. Intake is not compatible.

Exhaust will be different, but there are options. I have used Hooker D-Port headers and RARE factory headers (manifolds).

Brackets for Power Steering, Air Conditioning Compressor and AIR pump will not be compatible.
You can fabricate brackets using the 301 brackets and some additional 1/4" stock and make some spacers, like I did. But you need machine shop tools. (I can provide photos of the brackets I made.)

You will need a 3 groove crank pulley if you want to hook up the air compressor.
https://www.cvfracing.com/Pontiac-Pulley-Kit-A-C-3V-1969-High-Flow-p/pont3kit-hf.htm
These are fantastic quality, I just bought them for the new motor.

Carburetor will need work. They will run without a rebuild, but once rebuilt it is like a completely different motor. Many do not know that Q-Jets from 301 Turbos are 800cfm carbs. Get a rebuild kit from Cliff's http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/carbkits.html

It is very easy to meet the 1980 emission requirements. my '73 with a '70 intake and hi-flow cats easily passed the one and only time I was tested, and that was without any emission equipment, not even a EGR, except the cats...which I do not require under the rules.
I have never been checked or stopped.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:54:04 PM by Wheelman »

NorthernBandit

  • TOTAS Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 8
  • 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • My Ride: 1980 Trans Am 301CID RARE W72 Performance Package
  • Location: GTA
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 05:09:07 PM »
Thanks for the info. I also wanted to know about the clearance for my hood and present shaker. Don't know if you have any knowledge about hood closing issues.

If we put in the 76 t/a 455 motor into my 80 t/a engine bay, will the existing 301 shaker sit correctly and still allow the hood to close properly? I have heard the decking is higher on the 455 compared to the 301 and might cause hood closing issues. I thought the engine bay dimensions were all the same for the 2nd gen t/a's.


Wheelman

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
  • My Ride: 1981 Trans Am
  • Location: Etobicoke
Re: Engine swaps
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 11:27:56 AM »
The decking on all pontiac 400-455 blocks will be different than the 301's and 305's.
Intake height, air cleaners and shakers changed with the different years.

Dave (Whitebandit) would know better than I would about your specific combination. Or ask over at TransAmCountry.

There are drop air-cleaner bases available if you are too high. If too low then just add a carb spacer. You can even make a spacer out of wood and some gasket material to get the best fit.